Comments on: The continuing death-spiral of TV3D http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/ Breathtaking in its unremarkability. Fri, 21 May 2010 11:22:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: cdjaco http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-61 cdjaco Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:01:57 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-61 This is a good move. I don't believe for a second that anybody on the TV3D team read (let alone *followed*) my advice above to do just that, but it's a good move. By doing this, they've addressed the issue of the TV3D community being polarized into the "old and available" and "new, limited-access hotness" camps. Now everybody can mess with the same test code and samples. Of course, that leads to the next question: when will the *final* be released? I know, I know: give an inch and folks will take a mile. Still, unless the licensing agreement has been changed I don't think anybody can actually RELEASE a product using 6.5. The TV3D devs have some time: although their 6.5 user base has probably increased tenfold overnight now that the SDK is in the open, it'll take some time before any of the new users is ready to launch a game. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes 6.5 to make it to "gold" status in the coming months. The cynic in me can't help but think we'll see 6.5 beta updates and release candidates over the next year but little actual movement towards a final release. I'm *hoping* that this particular leopard has changed its spots and realized that independent and hobbyist developers are not idly waiting about for 6.5, but rather seeking out the best tool for the job *today*. This is a good move. I don’t believe for a second that anybody on the TV3D team read (let alone *followed*) my advice above to do just that, but it’s a good move.

By doing this, they’ve addressed the issue of the TV3D community being polarized into the “old and available” and “new, limited-access hotness” camps. Now everybody can mess with the same test code and samples.

Of course, that leads to the next question: when will the *final* be released? I know, I know: give an inch and folks will take a mile. Still, unless the licensing agreement has been changed I don’t think anybody can actually RELEASE a product using 6.5.

The TV3D devs have some time: although their 6.5 user base has probably increased tenfold overnight now that the SDK is in the open, it’ll take some time before any of the new users is ready to launch a game.

It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes 6.5 to make it to “gold” status in the coming months. The cynic in me can’t help but think we’ll see 6.5 beta updates and release candidates over the next year but little actual movement towards a final release. I’m *hoping* that this particular leopard has changed its spots and realized that independent and hobbyist developers are not idly waiting about for 6.5, but rather seeking out the best tool for the job *today*.

]]> By: Anne-Lise Pasch http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-60 Anne-Lise Pasch Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:58:39 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-60 Just thought I'd point out that 6.5 of TV3D has now been made Open... (I think the world ended! :>) Just thought I’d point out that 6.5 of TV3D has now been made Open… (I think the world ended! :>)

]]> By: Manjinder Singh Lamba http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-58 Manjinder Singh Lamba Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:31:32 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-58 Hi, I have been the center of this blog, and I stand by my statements. It has been very inconsiderate of the developers to declare a product to be available for public beta and then deny everybody of it. Not only are they sheilding their product from beta, they dare to impose restrictions on the licensed users also, not to make any product and sell it. My main consideration before buying the license was to see their opinion about their product strategy, I would never buy a product with which I cant create and sell according to my will. cdjaco's assumption that I might not be interested in buying the software is superflous. But it was for the whole community and my own sake that I provoked DQ so that I would know the real position of Deveoplers of TV3D. And at the end I am satisfied that I have been able to get the kind of straight response, that I expected, from them. Bye, MSL. Hi,

I have been the center of this blog, and I stand by my statements. It has been very inconsiderate of the developers to declare a product to be available for public beta and then deny everybody of it. Not only are they sheilding their product from beta, they dare to impose restrictions on the licensed users also, not to make any product and sell it. My main consideration before buying the license was to see their opinion about their product strategy, I would never buy a product with which I cant create and sell according to my will.

cdjaco’s assumption that I might not be interested in buying the software is superflous. But it was for the whole community and my own sake that I provoked DQ so that I would know the real position of Deveoplers of TV3D. And at the end I am satisfied that I have been able to get the kind of straight response, that I expected, from them.
Bye,
MSL.

]]> By: cdjaco http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-62 cdjaco Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:36:15 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-62 "The whole TV3D community, or at least what’s left of it, is at the mercy of the TV3D development team." True, although you could say the same about any commercial product. Still, if this isn't the dev's primary source of income (and I doubt it is) then TV3D must take a backseat to everything else and they might be telling themselves that *they* can afford for a delayed release. I just have a hard time believing that there aren't any disgruntled beta-testers right now, though; until 6.5 hits final nobody can ship a product using it (and even if the license were amended...would *you* want to ship a product based on a beta?). "Apparently the only thing they have given to the community over the past 3 years were broken promises." Ouch. That's harsh...and it might not be completely accurate. The TV3D team probably *hoped* to make an earlier delivery, but fell victim to scope creep and maybe bad estimation of the job at hand. I can imagine that this kind of statement would immediately throw them into defensive mode (and with good reason, it's human nature), though I wonder if they fail to realize how things truly look from an 'outsider' point of view. After all, Duke Nukem Forever might be the best thing since the wheel was invented, but since only a handful of people can see it the rest of the world considers it to be a joke at this point. "I’m sure letting 2 more persons on board the team of TV3D won’t kill them." No, it won't kill them -- but another 12 months of this closed beta will. If you're a C# or VB.NET developer, I'd definitely be giving XNA a good hard look right about now -- that community is a bit more diverse and Microsoft is staking the future of its XBox and "Games for Windows" lines on its success. Plus I've heard that the 2.0 framework (due for release later this year) will have built-in networking capability -- something the Truevision3D engine is still lacking. “The whole TV3D community, or at least what’s left of it, is at the mercy of the TV3D development team.”

True, although you could say the same about any commercial product. Still, if this isn’t the dev’s primary source of income (and I doubt it is) then TV3D must take a backseat to everything else and they might be telling themselves that *they* can afford for a delayed release. I just have a hard time believing that there aren’t any disgruntled beta-testers right now, though; until 6.5 hits final nobody can ship a product using it (and even if the license were amended…would *you* want to ship a product based on a beta?).

“Apparently the only thing they have given to the community over the past 3 years were broken promises.”

Ouch. That’s harsh…and it might not be completely accurate. The TV3D team probably *hoped* to make an earlier delivery, but fell victim to scope creep and maybe bad estimation of the job at hand. I can imagine that this kind of statement would immediately throw them into defensive mode (and with good reason, it’s human nature), though I wonder if they fail to realize how things truly look from an ‘outsider’ point of view.

After all, Duke Nukem Forever might be the best thing since the wheel was invented, but since only a handful of people can see it the rest of the world considers it to be a joke at this point.

“I’m sure letting 2 more persons on board the team of TV3D won’t kill them.”

No, it won’t kill them — but another 12 months of this closed beta will. If you’re a C# or VB.NET developer, I’d definitely be giving XNA a good hard look right about now — that community is a bit more diverse and Microsoft is staking the future of its XBox and “Games for Windows” lines on its success.

Plus I’ve heard that the 2.0 framework (due for release later this year) will have built-in networking capability — something the Truevision3D engine is still lacking.

]]> By: dama http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-63 dama Mon, 23 Jul 2007 00:25:13 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-63 I just thought that the more people they had working on the project, the faster it could be completed. Two heads are always better than one. If there's anything that'll sway someone like me from TV3D and onto another engine like Irrlicht, it wouldn't only be the power of the engine it 'd be the reputation of the developers of the engine. The whole TV3D community, or at least what's left of it, is at the mercy of the TV3D development team. Apparently the only thing they have given to the community over the past 3 years were broken promises. I'm sure letting 2 more persons on board the team of TV3D won't kill them. I just thought that the more people they had working on the project, the faster it could be completed. Two heads are always better than one. If there’s anything that’ll sway someone like me from TV3D and onto another engine like Irrlicht, it wouldn’t only be the power of the engine it ‘d be the reputation of the developers of the engine. The whole TV3D community, or at least what’s left of it, is at the mercy of the TV3D development team. Apparently the only thing they have given to the community over the past 3 years were broken promises.

I’m sure letting 2 more persons on board the team of TV3D won’t kill them.

]]> By: cdjaco http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-59 cdjaco Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:44:20 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-59 Well adding another developer or three might not be hard -- if they're willing to work for *free*. I doubt TV3D is pulling in a lot of money, based on a) the low cost of licensing and b) the relatively few number of regular forum posters I've seen on their site. Bringing a few more developers won't fix the problem immediately either (ala Brooks' Law). Opening the beta now, with version 6.5 as-is (which *can't* be that bad, if a couple dozen folks have been playing with it for 2-3 years) I think is the only way to make the most out of the situation. Otherwise, the TV3D community will continue to stagnate and lose whatever momentum it had in the 6.2 heyday. I can't envision an open beta happening soon, if for no other reason than the developers don't want to look like some dork with a blog browbeat them into that decision. Well adding another developer or three might not be hard — if they’re willing to work for *free*. I doubt TV3D is pulling in a lot of money, based on a) the low cost of licensing and b) the relatively few number of regular forum posters I’ve seen on their site.

Bringing a few more developers won’t fix the problem immediately either (ala Brooks’ Law).

Opening the beta now, with version 6.5 as-is (which *can’t* be that bad, if a couple dozen folks have been playing with it for 2-3 years) I think is the only way to make the most out of the situation. Otherwise, the TV3D community will continue to stagnate and lose whatever momentum it had in the 6.2 heyday.

I can’t envision an open beta happening soon, if for no other reason than the developers don’t want to look like some dork with a blog browbeat them into that decision.

]]> By: dama http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/comment-page-1/#comment-64 dama Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:00:12 +0000 http://blog.caljacobson.com/2007/07/05/the-continuing-death-spiral-of-tv3d/#comment-64 Thanks alot dude. I was really wondering what the deal was with TV3D. I used it (6.2) a few years back for 2 or 3 small things. I recently started looking into it again thinking that 6.5 would be out by now, but it still isn't. 3 years is the longest I've seen something stay in beta. How hard would it be to double or even triple the dev team? Thanks alot dude. I was really wondering what the deal was with TV3D. I used it (6.2) a few years back for 2 or 3 small things. I recently started looking into it again thinking that 6.5 would be out by now, but it still isn’t. 3 years is the longest I’ve seen something stay in beta. How hard would it be to double or even triple the dev team?

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