The Never-Ending Beta
UPDATE: If you can stomach my rambling after this post, here’s a new one on the topic from July 2007.
I’d like to preface this post with the following disclaimer, so as to deflect any low-hanging criticism before it appears:
What I’m about to write about is an incredibly minor, gnat-on-an-elephant’s-back annoyance. As far as I know, nobody will be harmed because of this issue. As an Internet freeloader and forum lurker, I’ve invested nothing but a little personal time into the subject at hand. Furthermore, the applicable developers owe me nothing. I do not wish this to be construed as a personal attack against them. I feel compelled to comment since I’ve followed this for a while and it seems so atypical of anything else I’ve seen in terms of software.
We all on the same sheet of music? Fantastic. Let’s have at it.
Several years ago I came across a great graphic engine called Truevision3D (TV3D for short). At the time I was getting hooked on the .NET experience and this engine not only supported the Framework (via COM) but had a nice collection of samples available so that I could quickly get up to speed with things. The community was small but spirited and helpful. Best of all, the engine was cheap: free if you didn’t mind a watermark, up to $500 if you wanted unrestricted rights.
I played with the engine, made some cool orbit simulations, and considered writing a game with TV3D. But on the horizon there awaited even more goodness: the incredible version 6.5. More than just three minor updates from the current v6.2, this new release would be a major rewrite of things and would feature shader support, an overhauled network engine, better terrain and model support and an integrated physics engine. As great as the current engine was, the new version sounded like the Best Thing Since Sliced Bread(TM).
I chose to wait, since I was busy at home and work anyways and had no burning need to crank out a game immediately. I felt that I could take my time, get even more comfortable with 6.2 and then start with 6.5 when it came out rather than try to retrofit older code. My time wasn’t too far away, I figured, since developer darqSHADOW announced in May 2004 that community members were to be slowly added to the beta program and I made it a point to sign up.
Months passed without word from the TV3D team about wider beta involvement. Still, most of the forum discussions focused on 6.2, even though the occasional 6.5 showcase thread would appear to keep us salivating. In December 2004 developer Arli announced that purchasers of 6.2 would automatically get into the beta; because I hadn’t purchased anything I didn’t get in on that action…but that was OK, since this most likely meant that a wider beta — or a full release — was in store for us in 2005.
By April 2005 it seemed like there were more and more questions about 6.5 appearing…the oft-asked “when is 6.5 coming out” forum posts (inevitably asked by new users) were receiving fewer and fewer polite responses by the forum regulars. September came and passed with little more than a new video posted by lead developer Sylvain along with the only “development diary” posted by the dev team for all of 2005. More and more 6.5 examples and sample code were being posted by beta testers; unfortunately this wasn’t as useful to the 6.2 folks.
By this time I wasn’t following TV3D as closely as I had before; whereas previously I visited the user forums on a near-daily basis, now I was coming around perhaps once a week.
Then, perhaps once or twice a month.
I stopped by in Spring 2006 and found that I wasn’t necessarily alone in my lack of optimism about 6.5’s progress. The community wasn’t quite as friendly as it was before: 6.2′ers were getting sick of seeing screenshots, videos and code samples exclusively for 6.5, and the 6.5′ers were sick of listening to the 6.2′ers whining about timelines instead of just ponying up a simple $150 to get in on the beta.
Each side, I think, had legitimate points: the 6.5′ers were mostly veterans of the forums and were sick to death of newbies asking the same questions; the occasional troublemakers and inflated-entitlement leeches didn’t improve the stance of the 6.2′ers either from what I could tell. On the other hand, the 6.5′ers tended to avoid such questions as “how can somebody publish a game using a beta?”
By Summer 2006 things continued their slow but gradual downhill slide. When one forum poster asked “Are they fooling us?” in regards to the ever-closed, never-ending beta, the conversation degenerated into the typical “they owe you nothing” dogfight that I’ve seen on a dozen other discussion boards (usually involving disgrunted game customers versus fanboys), with one developer chiming in and mentioning that the website was a key part of the 3D engine’s release. Then the discussion turned variations on “oh, well I’d rather wait and have something good than have a product that is rushed out” and “you’ll only complain louder if you don’t have proper documentation, which isn’t ready yet!”
It was at this point that I checked back out.
I do agree that in most cases it is better to wait for something great than have something barely adequate immediately. Small development teams may be forgiven for taking a long time to accomplish a task, especially if they are doing so on the side — that is, in their free time. Timelines for software are notoriously difficult. Building a 3D engine that itself is a product must be incredibly challenging and difficult.
But if your product has been in a closed beta for well over two years, you are doing something wrong.
First and foremost, you’ve Balkanized your community: instead of a vast majority that uses one version (with the occasional late-adopter dropping in on occasion), many of your advanced users and evangelists are using the newest toys while everybody else is in the slow lane. The gurus who would normally help the newbies are busy frolicking in greener pastures and are less inclined to “slum it” with the mundane problems of yesteryear.
Secondly, you’ve left some (perhaps many) of your bread-and-butter customers behind. These are people who started on their own projects a year (maybe two) ago and figured that as their own deadlines approached, your component would be ready for use. Maybe they’ve used the old product and their design requires a feature of your new product…or maybe they got in on the new version but can’t release their product because you are holding them up.
I can’t honestly say that watching the Truevision3D beta saga drag on angers me…because I really don’t have a dog in this fight. As I stated earlier, I haven’t invested a dime into this engine. A lot of hope, maybe, but no money. The words confusion and dismay are closer to what I’m feeling, along with disappointment and frustration. I’m having a lot of trouble comprehending how something with so much promise, with so many smart people working on it, can flounder like this.
I’d love to really find out why — but it’s clear that the TV3D forums aren’t the place for this discussion anymore, if it ever was. To have a voice, apparently you need to fork over at least $150…and at that point, you’re no longer interested in the opinion of anybody who hasn’t done the same. And I’d rather not pay somebody that much money for a product that could stay in beta for another two years.
Am I crazy?
This is a trivial thing — especially from my position — but does this situation strike anybody else as being normal or reasonable?
Postscript: the questions about 6.5’s release date continue. Two-and-a-half years later.
Postscript 2 (11 January 2007): TV3D user Zaknafein boldly posted a link to this entry in the Truevision3D forums, which explains my sudden surge of traffic.
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December 26th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
I did not buy the tv3d 6.2 (THANKS TO GOD) and I do not have courage to buy the 6.5
because I follow the site a long long time ago and it never has news.
The Never-Ending Beta > the perfect name,
congratulations !!!
January 11th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
I am currently a beta user of TV 6.5, and I can tell you that progress is always being made. 2 years of dev time isn’t that much for a product such as this, but I can definitely understand the frustration of always being told “coming soon”. However, the devs have decided to put off TVOctree, the last “major” feature, until 6.6, which will be a minor updgrade to 6.5. This means there is only relatively small stuff left to do, so it should be released in a matter of months (a personal estimate, nothing official).
One other thing, they are selling a license to 6.xx, not 6.2, so buying a 6.xx license entitles you to be able to sell projects with both 6.2 and 6.5.
January 11th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
i am also a beta user, i’m planning to switch to ogre, 6.5 will not be complete(indoor+media+network) when it is complete, time is something you cant waste easily…
January 11th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
I guess this is a good reminder that the product is ALWAYS the engine of any business. One can sell expectations for some time, and sure it’s fun to build up the business in advance - i like that part very much myself. But never leave the product behind!
Perhaps there is a cultural problem too. In the US it’s so easy to get into gear on the business promotional side. There’s funding, a huge market, key manufacturers to team up with, etc.
But the product development is located in France. Very independent, very intelligent, and aims for technical excellence, not maximum sales. And no supervisor.
Never believe what you read! Use your head too, someone may be fooling you, deliberately or accidently. The TV3D web site promises too much. So now we know that. Everyone is free to make conclusions.
Yes, i might have done it differently to some parts. Better patience, control, public status. But these are minor things. The main track is in order.
These guys are learning and do as they wish. I’d tell all parties (complainers, fanboys and devs) to shut up and do your work! Use the head, get the job done. And stay focused!
January 11th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
I can understand the distress of people waiting if I had to release a project myself.
It is taking quite some time, and that’s a reality which is not changing in the immediate future.
The important feature is that TV3D IS cheap. And easy to use. It is 150$ (130€ for the european customer, a tad more) - if you’re getting into applications business 150$ it’s more than affordable; I would say it’s cheap even for the hobbyist.
It takes money to get into the beta: this is true. It takes time to wait for the completion of the beta: this is true as well. But when darqSHADOW states he doesn’t feel like releasing an incomplete product, I don’t feel like blaming him, honestly.
However, here’s the moral of this short story: people would like to use TV3D because they are aware of its great features, but they find out they eventually can’t because of deadlines and grow annoyed. TV3D comes cheap (
January 11th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
…TV3D comes cheap (
January 11th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
First, thanks to everybody who has replied so far — and done so in a civil manner.
I don’t know if there’s really anything to add right now from *my* point of view, other than if 6.5 ever IS released, I’ll certainly be interested in giving it a test drive. I’m frustrated by the situation, but I’d like to think that I’m not biased against the engine or the development team.
January 11th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Oh, and Raine…sorry about your comment being cut; that must be a Wordpress thing. I didn’t touch it — I swear!
January 11th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
I hesitated to post that in the forums… I hope it didn’t offend you or anything.
I just thought it was an elaborate summary of the situation, and I think you say many things that many people could relate to. Hence the forum diffusion.
January 11th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
No, I’m certainly not offended…but I appreciate the concern.
January 12th, 2007 at 12:39 am
No problem
I thought it was Wordpress cutting it up.
Nice reading, surely something to think about - the more the perspectives, the better.
January 12th, 2007 at 6:47 am
I agree with some of your points. There is a huge lack of information for non-beta users and that is a large part of the problem. I have been guilty of slating the “when 6.5 coming” threads. I don’t really have an excuse for that - you have pretty much explained in your text why those threads degenerate. Your point about the lack of support for 6.2 is interesting, many of us said that was going to happen when the devs started running the two versions in tandem. Anyways, I just wanted to say it was nice to read a well written block of criticism instead of the usual whines.
January 12th, 2007 at 10:18 am
I really appreciate your well thought out dissertation of the beta process, it’s nice to see someone put some thought into something prior to going on an open rant.
Now onto my counter-points…
I have been involved in the software development industry for a long time, and what we have managed to pull off in 2 years a well above what major companies do in 5, with a staff 20x larger than ours. I think one of the key issues here is that we used the word “beta” far too soon, when actually it was more of a “technology preview”. This minor change in terms can drastically affect how people look at the product. We literally wrote TV3D 6.5 from the ground up in these 2 years, it is a totally new codebase, new rendering pipelines (with over 700 internal shaders for all various cards), and a whole new wrapper technology that we developed exclusively for TV3D. I believe we are on the right path, and the next few weeks will prove this in many peoples eyes.
I don’t want to clutter your blog up, so further discussion about this by me will be handled on our site — but I would like to let everyone know that are finishing up the 6.5 Preview along with the 6.3 update and entirely new website. Get ready, the ride is about to get bumpy…
John
January 12th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
As a final note, I’d like to say that TV3D - no matter when - will allow non-pro people to realize a long-standing dream… game development! It takes effort, but with TV3D it’ll be so much feasible.
*waves at everyone*
I’m out now.
January 12th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion… and the release of TV3D 6.5 has been a very long time comming.
That said, it seems to me that the people who complain the most about the wait are the people that use the free version. They haven’t paid anything to support the dev team or TV3D as a product. It takes a lot of time, money & effort to create and maintain a product like TV3D. I think the devs are very generous to provide the free versions, especially with so few linitations & watermarks.
If they really want to start using 6.5 now, why don’t they stop complaining and give a little back by purchasing a 6.X license - which includes access to the 6.5 beta?
John B.
January 13th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
JohnB: thanks for reading my post. It is clear that you’ve obviously paid close attention to the points I’ve made.
darqSHADOW: I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I’m glad you did not take this as a personal attack.
That said, I stand by my statement “if your product has been in a closed beta for well over two years, you are doing something wrong.” NOTHING, short of a major operating system, should remain in beta for more than 24 months: if it has, then you’ve bitten off too much to chew.
This doesn’t mean the project should be scrapped or the work to date is pointless. What it *should* signal is that the schedule or features need a serious rework. And if you have a user base, you MUST communicate with them. Frequently.
January 18th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
“why don’t they stop complaining and give a little back by purchasing a 6.X license”
buy something without testing before?
for God’s sake!!!
imagine how many years for the new versions 6.6,6.7,…,7.x
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:03 pm
darqSHADOW wrote:
“, and the next few weeks will prove this in many peoples eyes.”
we go count these >>> NEXT FEW WEEKS
April 4th, 2007 at 4:44 am
I think the main problem is that the team is made of only 2 people, and only one of them is doing some work while other is acting bossy… and that they do it in free time.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:46 am
darqSHADOW wrote:
January 12th, 2007 at 10:18 am
“I believe we are on the right path, and the next few weeks will prove this in many peoples eyes.”
16 weeks =4 months = 1/3 year … and still waiting
June 11th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
[...] Seven months later, Truevision3D 6.5 is still nowhere to be seen by the non-paying public. [...]
July 6th, 2007 at 9:59 am
[...] continuing death-spiral of TV3D Jump to Comments Preface I’ve written about the Truevision3D (TV3D) engine before, and I’d like to stress again that my disclaimer still applies. My inability to find a good, [...]
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:41 am
hi guys,
I’ve also been waitn for 6.5 for over 2yrs now. In fact i used 6.2 to for my final year project work SWORD OF SYGOS in 2006 with VB.net which was actually supposed to be done with tv6.5.
6.5 really sounds promising but personally I think it has kept too long. 2yrs is a lot of time to waste. I committed serious adultery moving from engine to engine trying to write my 1st commercial game(soccer game) and ended up with XNA which I also realized is strictly for hobbyist and microsoft wouldn’t sell the commercial version to small companies. Because of my loyalty to .NET, I returned to my good friends Truevision3D hoping to see TV6.5 released! I was so much disappointed to see 6.5 still in beta mode and must annoying, the website hadn’t changed 1 bit. I took courage to read thru the same beta features and development videos and fell in love all over again with 6.5.
I quickly asked a friend in the US to buy me a license to 6.3 so i can have access to 6.5 and he did. Thinking my soccer game is almost about to begin, i found that, the audio and network classes are not available. HOW? darqSHADOW , seriousely speaking I think you guys should just put yourself in my shoes and imagine what i felt! My company is supposed to finish this soccer game early nxt year and yet still, our main engine isn’t out! I hope latest by next 2mnts we shd have something. I dont want to use the network or tvmedia 6.2 for this bcos we want it in pure .NET.
After buying the engine i realised you blog support fr 6.5 beta are too old. most of the posts were made in 2004/2005. How annoying. After paying money just to realise your support is way back 2yrs ago.
I’m making this complain here instead of your official site to make you understand me better.
I’m a serious fun of TV3d and nothing is going to change that! But please make us happy…..
I also need a site that i can find sample codes on implementing physics in 6.5. can anyone help?